Conspiracy - it helps to understand before buying in...

www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-02/jfk-documents-trump-conspiracy-theories/104875274

Despite the words in the link, it's a reasonably informative article about situations that lead to, and types of people who fall for, conspiracy theories.

To whom it may concern: please don't lock or move this thread to the Dumpster, 'cause I'm going to relate this to photography in a very long rant about (yes, you may well have guessed it!) Equivalence. 😁

Now, before I begin my rant, I want to say up front that, despite my history on DPR, I don't really care about Equivalence at all -- I just try to take the best photos I can with the camera in hand. But I do very much enjoy knowing how and why things work they way they do and I very much do care about is willful ignorance. The whole mess the US is in today was foreshadowed almost precisely by the way the "Equivalence Wars" played out on DPR.

OK, so I googled the following: "why do people believe conspiracies but deny provable facts" and got the following AI response, which I very much agree with:

People might believe conspiracies while denying provable facts due to a combination of psychological factors including a need to feel in control, a distrust of authority, cognitive biases that encourage pattern recognition, social pressures, and a desire to maintain their existing worldview, often leading them to selectively interpret information that aligns with their beliefs and dismiss evidence that contradicts them; this can be especially prevalent when facing complex or uncertain situations.

Key points about why people might believe conspiracies:

Sense of Control:

Conspiracy theories can provide a sense of understanding and control in situations that feel chaotic or uncertain, allowing individuals to believe they have "inside knowledge" about events, even if that knowledge is not based on facts.

Distrust in Authority:

A deep distrust of institutions or powerful figures can make people more susceptible to believing that these entities are actively concealing information, leading them to seek alternative explanations.

Cognitive Biases:

Humans naturally seek patterns and connections, which can sometimes lead to misinterpreting random events as part of a larger conspiracy.

Confirmation Bias:

People tend to focus on information that confirms their existing beliefs while dismissing evidence that contradicts them, reinforcing their conspiracy theories.

Social Influence:

When surrounded by others who believe in a conspiracy, individuals might be more likely to adopt those beliefs due to social pressure or a desire to fit in.

Motivated Reasoning:

People can be motivated to interpret information in a way that supports their desired conclusion, especially when it aligns with their political or ideological views.

One important factor that was not included in the list is the Dunning-Kruger Effect (you can Google it if you don't know about it). Now, to be sure, no one is immune to all of the above (except me, obviously 😁). We're all on a spectrum which varies significantly based on a huge number of factors. For example, one of the more problematic of the Equivalence Deniers (who, in the end, after coming to understand that what "we" were saying was, in fact, correct) actually wrote, "I don't even care if they're right anymore -- they're just annoying and should be banned."

And that's what the mods did, in fact, do -- they banned the "annoying" people who were correct, because, well, the willfully ignorant were annoyed at constantly being corrected. Imagine a group of people in a church constantly interrupting the preacher by pointing out inconsistencies and inaccuracies in the Bible that contradict their sermon. Imagine if every MAGA person were fact-checked everytime they opened their mouth or posted something. But we don't have to really imagine, we can simply look at any number of posts when an mFT enthusiast was told that, no, their 25 / 1.4 was not equivalent to a 50 / 1.4 on FF, but rather a 50 / 2.8 on FF. And you don't have to imagine how much worse it got as they dug their hole (with help from others, no less!) faster than "we" could give them shovels.

Now, does Equivalence actually matter? Does the fact that the Earth is a sphere, tilted at 23.4°, that rotates about its axis once per day, and orbits the Sun once per year, matter? Well, not in the normal course of most people's lives (and never in the life of a Flat Earther). But it does matter if you want to understand why there are seasons, why the plane flies near the Aleutian Islands and Kamchatka from San Diego to Tokyo, etc., etc., etc..

Equivalence is the same deal, and the deniers all exhibit the same kinds of extreme behavior as conspiracy theorists. And, as everyone in the US is realizing (or is about to find out), yeah, the facts do matter. And when it all goes wrong, doubling down on ignorance, as opposed to righting yourself, is the absolute worst course of action to take.

Hopefully, this saves your thread. Or did I just dig the hole deeper? 😉

We sure need some urgent research on why people believe conspiracy theories. Democracy is at stake.

Some further thoughts.
Ever since tobacco became a target of science and legislation, there has been a major campaign to destroy trust in Science. It has worked.
Check "The Triumph of Doubt" by David Michaels. Also check his credentials. he's been in the right places at the right time to know what he's talking about. He is excellent at showing how "doubt" has been used to undermine science and create fear from politicians to prevent them acting on scientific evidence. There's now a whole mega industry whose services can be purchased (including peer review science journals) to "cast doubt" and undermine science.

Then there is the role of media. In the USA in particular, Fox news (and its Australian owner Murdoch) should be held to account. Roger Ailes convinced Murdoch that there was money to be made by running a media outlet that told those on the right what they wanted to hear. Fox has been brilliantly successful at it. Fox has destroyed traditional journalism ethics and opened up the world of alternative facts. They have played a large part in destroying trust in the traditional channels of information in the name of "free speech."

Then there is the role of religion in the USA. I can only shake my head in incredulity on this one but the consequences seem to run through every aspect of USA life.

Well first off, I don't know why the thread needed saving. It was an article that hopefully helps some people from falling down the conspiracy hole.
And we are on DPRevived not DPR, so as long as the admins are not also conspiracy theorists, I think we are safe... 😉

I have met the odd one. And as much as reading about them and their beliefs is odd, it is something else (for a STEM type person) to sit there and listen to what they believe, and observe how, to justify their beliefs, they continually grab at the next more implausible idea. Just for example, the latest one I met was a flat earther. I never really thought anyone could be brain washed to that extent and it was all I could do to hold my composure (stop my jaw from dropping indicating I thought I talking to a complete looney tunes - but she saw enough signs to read that anyway, and as are all good conspiracy theorists, she came well prepared with responses). To my observation that you don't have to go up a very high hill to see the earth's curvature, I received a well rehearsed response about optical illusion and the one that ALL pilots know it's not true but they can't say it through fear of losing their jobs. Then came the lie that she had met 3 pilots who confirmed it for her. And on and on - no real answer to great circle paths - not enough grey matter to understand those...

It was interesting to link your issue with equivalence deniers (would be my issue too but I haven't got caught in that one and with your help will hopefully avoid it) with conspiracy theorists and there is of course equivalence (pun intended) in intelligence, grey matter function, belief systems, etc, between both camps.

My observation of that whole thing on DPR is that the problem for those who try to state facts is the Complaint Button. The deniers have that sort of personality that they hammer away on that little button while the rational do not. The mods, whether smart enough to understand the discussion or not, and not smart enough to understand that it is the complainers who are the problem, are sort of bound to sin bin the messenger... Something that has had parallels in history over the eons and that can be observed becoming more prevalent as the mass of the great unwashed grows... I blame sedentary, easy lifestyle, poor food and media content. To me this all started many decades ago once tv and jock strap presenters became the norm. Sure computer games, mobile phones, fb, twitter all contribute, but its roots go back a long way to when media and marketing companies realised they could influence behaviour for their benefit, with no consideration of the long term effects on society in general.

TBC?

All true but just a quick fact check there.

Part of the deal of Murdoch taking over Fox was that he had to become a USA citizen. So we can properly wipe our hands of him and continue to consider that our country would never produce such a person... 😁

One interesting point on this, this behavior often leads us to do virtually the exact opposite of our stated aims. Take the anti-vax movement, ticks all the above boxes, and so we deny ourselves and our children vaccinations on the pretense of keeping healthy. Though the idea is propagated by the hawkers and snake oil salesmen to profit of the vulnerable, it is maintained and converted to a movement by the vulnerable who are being preyed upon.

Photography:

The trouble with a lot of mods is that, with no formal training, there is the usual human trait that "our vision is absolute, we see things clearly, we have a clear global overview of the truth just by looking." If we believe that we see that global overview rather than our own viewpoint which is the product of, and restricted by, the limits of our knowledge and experience, then you find that the mods are imposing their own bias on the forum while they are believing they are being fair and unbiased. I've also come across mods who are the very definition of arrogance, there is only their point of view and they resent being told anything. One was quite aggressive.

I would just like to unpack this statement a little and offer an alternative idea.

What does a logical process produce? Predictable and therefore predicted results. Not just that but if the metrics for predicting the results are based on the science of how a camera works then your goals and aims will align with the technical performance of the camera because that is precisely what you align them with. "I see clearly and so I just havwe to make things visible for them to be seen correctly," highlights recorded, noise minimised, sharpness optimised, detail recorded and revealed in shadows. Sometimes it sounds little more than a technical exersize, an advanced on maybe, but still technical.

Your audience, and their emotive reaction to your photos on the other hand is anything but rational or logical. In fact you've provided a very good summary of how we see and view photos in the italics above. Even when trying to align photography with the purely technical and factual aspects you prove our vision is not absolute but highly coloured by our own worldview and the bias it imposes.

So what do we do? Make the ignorant understand the truth and our photos, or understand the human condition and translate our photos into their language of emotion and irrationality?

I do not deny the relationships defined by "equivalence" or the usefulness in understanding how the relationships work, but isn't it also worth asking if the process itself takes you towards or away from connecting with your audience. Are you sure it doesn't take you in the opposite direction to an understanding of emotive expression?

I am willfully ignorant of "equivalence" because I find that logical process tied to science and the mechanics of photographyu is counter to understanding the abstract of human behavior as outlined in the italics in your OP. It is a deliberate choice though, not one of ignorance...

I think he has dual citizenship. Oh the shame of it - he built the Empire starting with a little Adelaide newspaper. Apologies everyone.

Fact checked. I'm wrong, he had to renounce Australian citizenship to get USA citizenship. Thanks USA. But why are we letting him buy up land in some of our nicer areas?

One thing I forgot to add to my post above that's relevant. We as humans do not see the world in the same terms as you measure it with science, the world as we "see" it is not derived from the same data set. This is quite easily provable, though we still try to relate our experience of the world with the data we measure and relate that directly to what we see.

The main point is that it's not just the data set that's different but the philosophy or intent behind the interpretation of "reality". Because we don't start with te absolute data and because we are defined by our ecology that is empirical, the world we "see" has a fundamental difference to the one measured by science. Science give the absolute answer, evolution though has taught us that we survive far better if our understanding of the world is consistent rather than absolute.

It is this that leads us to believe our vision is absolute and that we have a global overview. We not only change facts, ignore facts, etc, we change the data recorded. It is in our nature to reinforce our viewpoint defined by our experience and belive that it's absolute, we also actively strive to maintain that viewpoint and belive it's the absolute truth so we can act with confidence and deciciveness when required.