• Members 1714 posts
    July 21, 2024, 5:11 p.m.

    Here are a few thoughts about one of the most useful tools we have, to give the impression of depth in a photograph. It is reproduced from my Blog, and I hope it clarifies the use and meaning of perspective effects in a photograph.

    Previous cultures understood pictorial perspective, but in its mathematical form, linear perspective is generally believed to have been devised about 1415 by the architect Filippo Brunelleschi (1377–1446) and codified in writing by the architect and writer Leon Battista Alberti (1404–1472), in 1435 (De pictura [On Painting]).

    But, Brunelleschi, Alberti, and others only understood one point perspective, the simplest pictorial form of perspective. We have just one point where the sightlines converge. Central perspective, however, is so violent and intricate a deformation of the normal shape of things that it came about only as the result of prolonged exploration and in response to very particular cultural needs. Curiously, the distortions imposed by perspective on the real, tactile world are so successful that modern viewers only note them when pointed out.

    If we construct a perspective drawing, or use perspective in a photograph, the angle of view is a question of proportion, that can be explained by tracing an image on a window whilst looking through a small hole at a fixed distance. A simple illustration explains the concept nicely. It is obvious that the angle of view and the steepness of the sightlines are infinitely variable.

    persp.jpg

    Quoting a pamphlet on the use of perspective in Renaissance painting, published by the British National Gallery, we can understand that sometimes we need to depart from pure geometric, or mathematical models:

    “Optical illusion does not necessarily depend on mathematical absolutes and, with a few important exceptions such as Piero della Francesca, it seems that painters were more concerned with achieving a level of visual plausibility than with the rigorous application of theoretical models. Perspective was designed to fulfil the needs of the picture (not vice versa), and a series of other conditions and criteria were at stake: the knowledge, skill and aesthetic preferences of the artist, the demands of patrons, the ways in which the site might determine the viewpoint, and the requirements of the subject matter. Thus, a painting which has often been considered a perspectival manifesto, Masaccio’s ‘Trinity’ fresco, has been shown to bend the rules of one-point mathematical perspective, probably because it looked better that way”

    Figure2PerspectiveInterior.jpg
    Construction of a One-Point perspective drawing

    clipboard_e8b1481.png
    Sight lines for Leonardo da Vinci's The Last Supper

    onepoint.jpg
    Simple 1 point perspective

    Two-point perspective, necessary to show objects set at an oblique angle to the viewer, took another century to evolve. The first known diagram of the two-point perspective by Jean Pélérin, in his De Artificiali perspectiva (1505), which was also the first printed treatise on perspective. With two-point perspective, there are two vanishing points on the horizon line. This creates the illusion of depth and space

    twopoint.jpg
    Simple 2 point perspective

    Two-point perspective is probably a much more useful, than one point perspective, if we want to create an illusion of a three-dimensional object in a photograph. But it is harder to control and unwanted perspective effects can creep in to make a picture look unnatural.

    Three-point perspective is a type of perspective that uses three vanishing points. It is used to draw objects that are above or below the viewer’s eye level, such as skyscrapers or bridges. In three-point perspective, the lines that are parallel to each other in the real world converge to three different points on the horizon line. Three-point perspective is closely connected to two-point perspective, and is generally unwelcome in Architectural photography. Three-point perspective often appears as “key stoning” in a photograph.

    3point.jpg
    Simple 3 point perspective

    Let's look at some real world examples. With Aldo Rossi's Ossario in Modena as an example. I made three pictures with one, two and three point perspective.

    DSC_0689_HDR 2.jpg
    1 point perspective

    DSC_0677_HDR 1.jpg
    2 point perspective

    DSC_0677_HDR_DxOVPexample 1.jpg
    3 point perspective

    When we look at a reasonably low building like the one above, our brain applies key stone correction, and we see the vertical walls as being vertical.

    A shift lens can help us produce pictures with one or two point perspective. It allows us to shift our eyesight convergence point in any direction.

    DSC_6522.jpg
    Upward shift moves the single convergence point upwards

    BDS_2846_HDR 1.jpg
    But we can also shift the convergence point both upwards and sideways, to keep the horizontal and vertical line s parallel, and create un unusual perspective effect

    DSC_0884_HDR 2.jpg
    Exaggerated 2 point perspective for dramatic effect.

    DSC_2490 1.jpg
    2 point perspective

    DSC_2490 1.jpg

    JPG, 803.2 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    DSC_0884_HDR 2.jpg

    JPG, 1.3 MB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    BDS_2846_HDR 1.jpg

    JPG, 1.2 MB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    DSC_6522.jpg

    JPG, 1.3 MB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    DSC_0677_HDR_DxOVPexample 1.jpg

    JPG, 679.8 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    DSC_0677_HDR 1.jpg

    JPG, 670.2 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    DSC_0689_HDR 2.jpg

    JPG, 653.0 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    3point.jpg

    JPG, 46.2 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    twopoint.jpg

    JPG, 39.7 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    onepoint.jpg

    JPG, 30.4 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    clipboard_e8b1481.png

    PNG, 3.3 MB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    Figure2PerspectiveInterior.jpg

    JPG, 358.3 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

    persp.jpg

    JPG, 54.1 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

  • Members 216 posts
    July 21, 2024, 8:15 p.m.

    One of the problems that happened when try and classify how many points they have in an image it that there are an infinite number of points to create an image in a 2D print.
    If we look at the first to create the lighted areas in front of the building they have their own VP. It only really comes to play when dealing with simple objects.
    The placement of an objects within the frame will create the theoretical VP. Take a car parked parallel to the street it will follow the VP of the street, skew that car to 10 degrees from the street and now we need VP to create its relationship of that car in a 2d print.

  • Members 1714 posts
    July 21, 2024, 8:51 p.m.

    I introduced the most simple cases, to show how the basic principles of perspective drawing and photography using perspective effects . We can see in the drawing below that we can have many vanishing points in a scene. But most of the time one or two point perspective for the main subject are sufficient.

    Screenshot_21-7-2024_224433_ia800905.us.archive.org.jpeg

    The principle piece of furniture obeys two point perspective. Think of all the secondary objects as separate entities using two or three point perspective in this case.

    Screenshot_21-7-2024_224433_ia800905.us.archive.org.jpeg

    JPG, 136.0 KB, uploaded by NCV on July 21, 2024.

  • Members 1714 posts
    July 22, 2024, 5:02 a.m.

    This thread is not about shift lenses. It is about perspective, in the visual arts.

    Shift lenses are a tool I use to get one and two point perspective in a photograph. It allows me to frame the scene I want, without having to guess future cropping.

    here is a quote from James Ewing from his textbook Follow the Sun. A book aimed at professionals and students and considered a standard text for Architectural photography.

    "You might ask yourself "Do I really need an expensive tilt shift lens" Can't I just correct the perspective later in Photoshop?" The answer is yes you could correct it later, but the tilt shift lens allows you to see and feel the perspective of the images you are shooting. The final crop and ultimately the entire composition will be totally different in a shot that is corrected in post. If you cannot see the image while you are shooting you cannot control the composition and therefore you cannot effectively interpret the building. Correcting the perspective during post production causes a significant loss of sharpness and detail. The Tilt shift lens gives you accurate, sharp controlled images."

    I think this says it all.

    I started my photography with shift lenses, with a €300 D700 and a €300 Nikon 28mm PC lens. If you have a mirrorless camera you can easily adapt the €300 Nikon PC or Canon 24 ( early version) and have a very effective low cost ability to use shift lenses. My complete set of shift lenses cost me much less than many people pay for just one long lens for wildlife or sport.

    Shift lenses seem to incite a lot of "lens hate" for some reason on photo forums. I cannot see the problem with using the right lens for the photo.

    But as usual the thread has quickly gone off topic. This is a tread about perspective and any lens on any camera, as long as it is perfectly level can exploit one and two point perspective.

  • Members 655 posts
    July 22, 2024, 6:22 a.m.

    One could use the same argument for primes vs zooms -- rather than use a zoom, just use a wider prime and crop. Depending on how much you're cropping, just like depending on how much you're correcting for perspective, you can take quite a hit in IQ.

    Of course, PC lenses can be a bit of a pain. So far as I'm aware, they're all primes and all manual focus. That's pretty inconvenient for a lot of people. Then again, primes can be a bit of a pain for a lot of people. Suffice it to say, there are pros and cons to all these options, just like everything else. We simply need to be aware that our preference is usually not universal, and people choosing differently aren't necessarily doing it because they're unaware that there's a better way -- we all balance absolute IQ and convenience differently.

  • Members 560 posts
    July 22, 2024, 6:48 a.m.

    Nice illustration of the process of creating a perspective drawing.

    Making the comparison with taking a photograph, the peephole represents the camera lens and the distance between the peephole and the window glass represents the focal length (of a very large format camera).

  • Members 560 posts
    July 22, 2024, 6:54 a.m.

    I would think that most people would say that the perspective is different in a photo with obvious keystoning and the same photo taken with a shift lens to eliminate keystoning (or with the keystoning eliminated by software).

  • Members 560 posts
    July 22, 2024, 8 a.m.

    I agree. However, we have to be very careful to define what we mean by the direction in which the camera was pointing. Most people will assume that the camera is pointing towards the centre of the picture (which is true in most cases). In this case, however, we mean the direction of the optical axis (because the image has been cropped).

    Careful definitions are needed to avoid misunderstanding and confusion.

  • Members 1714 posts
    July 22, 2024, 9:16 a.m.

    I mentioned shift lenses because they are the best way of controlling perspective in a photograph. A large format camera with full movements is even better.

    You put words in my mouth. Cropping, shifting does not change the perspective in a picture, that is pretty obvious. Shifting changes the convergence point, cropping changes the angle of view.

  • Members 1714 posts
    July 22, 2024, 9:38 a.m.

    Yes it is a good illustration of a pretty simple concept.

    Here is a link to a couple of old but still very valid books about artistic perspective( Valid until 29/7)

  • Members 1714 posts
    July 22, 2024, 9:55 a.m.

    DSC_2605 1.jpg

    I cannot see anything weird about this picture with a horizontal and vertical off axis convergence point.

    BTW. diagonal shift is very difficult to replicate with software correction, where the horizontal and vertical lines are parallele.

    DSC_2605 1.jpg

    JPG, 1.1 MB, uploaded by NCV on July 22, 2024.

  • July 22, 2024, 10:36 a.m.

    I don't find it obvious. The key phrase here is 'in a picture'. Had you said 'in a scene' I'd agree, but both cropping and shifting change the way in which the scene is projected onto the picture. As regards perspective, both affect the picture-relative positions of the vanishing points.

  • July 22, 2024, 11:20 a.m.

    Except that it looks unnatural for 'uneducated' viewer?
    I have got somewhat used to your geometric images (taken with shift lens) and can enjoy simple and pure geometry of these, but initially they looked very strange - there are some usual perspective components missing (or in other words their optical centre does not match image centre).

    It is like contemporary classical music - they say that you have to learn to enjoy it and if you have not musical background and skills, then it sounds just like cacophony.