How to get the best raw exposure, part 2

she also mentioned it was jargon.
special words or expressions used by a profession or group that are difficult for others to understand.
"legal jargon"

Some kind of resolution of the debate, perhaps? An acceptance by one or both parties that they have arrived at a satisfactory conclusion?

my research.
Precise language: A vocabulary of precise nouns and vivid verbs helps you create strong mental pictures and avoid wordiness.
Im afraid your post didnt convey that at all . is jargon conveying a strong message ? i dont think so.

Concise language: Using the fewest possible words without sacrificing meaning makes your writing more understandable.
even this doesnt fit the post
Jargon for sure 😁

One point per para!

You have 3 questions in one para, I'm now in a position of having to deal with 3 responses in parallel. Too confusing to write out in a discussion format like this, it really almost forces 3 separate responses, otherwise we end up arguing on multiple fronts, which I don't like.

Bob

I'm picking one claim out of your earlier response to me and keeping it separate.

You claim here that you have a definition of ETTR and I have a definition of ETTR and they are different and that proves we are using different definitions of terms and thus mis-communicating.

But I can't see any difference in our definitions. You say expose so the histogram is placed as far to the right as it will go, I say expose as hot as you dare. Exposing as hot as your dare = expose so the histogram is just shy of clipping (and if you are feeling really brave, give it a little extra nudge because we know the jpeg histogram is conservative compared to raw).

It's the same thing...

There is only one way to optimise exposure for raw at base ISO and that is to push it as hot as you can without clipping key highlights. This is what ETTR means. I'd like to hear what you think is the practical difference in our definitions beyond semantics.

😁

Raising the ISO number isn't directly underexposure, but it does tell the metering system to give less exposure if you are in A, S or P mode. If you are in M mode it does nothing.

I think it's best to use "brightness" for the scene and "lightness" for the photograph.

Don

Far be it for me to be seen to agree with Donald, but I'd like to caveat what you said.

Technical jargon is language that is designed to enable crisp, accurate, non-ambiguous discussion between subject matter experts. It often results in the purloining of words that have other meanings in casual speech. Often, different technical fields use the same words for different purposes. Sometimes the same term is used for completely different purposes even within the same field. Some jargon has its origins in the past, in misconceptions that have since been cleared up, and are a poor choice of term for modern understandings. But jargon of long standing can become entrenched in a profession because of long use, it cannot be changed and relies on specialists understanding the word is an anachronism.

This can all make jargon difficult for lay people to understand, not because they lack vocabulary, but because words are being repurposed for a specialist technical field. It is sometimes the case that practitioners in a specialist field become so used to the specialist vocabulary, they have forgetten the words can have different meanings outside their specialism.

Specialists need to be very careful when using jargon outside their field or when communicating with a general audience. Jargon has its place and its strengths but needs to be used with understanding and care, else it will create the very confusion it is intended to solve.

It's my belief that when communicating with a general audience there is no form of wording that can guarantee understanding. As a communicator what you need to do is create a dialogue that provides feedback from the audience as to what they think you mean. That way, you can adjust your approach if it shown to be mis-firing. Insisting that you are using very precise language and blaming the audience for not understanding is bad strategy. The onus is on the author to make themselves understood, not on the audience to become smarter. Take a look at a publisher that writes for the most general audience possible (the whole population): gov.uk. I've worked at GDS's labs, they have an almost impossible brief to fulfill and they do it by seeking feedback through testing, testing, testing. You may not like gov.uk, but it is as good as it gets for a general audience. They know this because they have the test data to demonstrate it.

Yes, that is what I meant.

I shoot 99% in A mode, so most of my photographic experience is working within those constraints. I use manual only for long exposures and panos and then only at base ISO. I've read some people use auto ISO in M mode. What is it supposed to do for you, used like this?

I am one of those and I also use Aperture priority + Auto ISO and a minimum shutter speed set.

In M mode Auto ISO will set an ISO value to output an average 18% grey image for the exposure* you set earlier. Then, especially if shooting raw you set the final image lightness in post.

* exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
*** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

Do you mean in M mode, auto iso will lighten the image to simulate an 18% average exposure irrespective of the shutter speed and aperture (and thus exposure) set ?

Yes, after correcting your question because image lightness and exposure* are two different things although related. Image lightness and exposure* are not two names for the same thing.

For example:

Let's say you are in M mode and for a given scene you set

f/8, 1/200s manually and after metering the scene Auto ISO sets ISO to 400.

The camera determined that for the given scene lighting and the chosen aperture and shutter speed then ISO needs to be set to 400 to output an average 18% grey image.

Now, let's say (still in manual mode) you change shutter speed to 1/400s for whatever reason. The camera, with Auto ISO, will then set ISO to 800 to output an average 18% grey image.

The image lightness for both shots will be the same but the exposure* for the ISO 800 shot will be half the exposure* of the ISO 400 shot and so the ISO 800 shot will have more visible noise because of its lower exposure*

To show there is no "magic" or anything unusual going on let's say you now change to Aperture priority mode and set f/8 and lock in ISO 400. The camera will then set 1/200s shutter speed to output an 18% grey image.

I hope all this makes sense.

* exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
*** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

i shoot A most of the time. but if im shooting a dance concert .i will shoot M set shutter to 1/250 sec and required aperture for dof from solos to group performances, and float iso. forget about the whole 18% BS the camera will meter correctly, i even use exposure comp for specific lighting situations.