• Members 139 posts
    June 18, 2024, 2:14 p.m.

    Wondering if you have any thoughts on this @bobn2?

  • Members 2322 posts
    June 18, 2024, 9:41 p.m.

    marketing jargon

  • Members 319 posts
    June 18, 2024, 10:15 p.m.

    I expect there is a patent filed (either by Nikon or Sony, depending on who spent the money to design it) on this sensor design somewhere in the system. This is the only description I have seen to day. Two chips being welded in a stack to rapidly pass data, which reduces the yield and hence raises the cost. In this case the electronics is stacked in two rows on the edge of the sensor. That reduces the read out rate but not to the same extent of a true stacked sensor. It still seems to need a mechanical shutter unlike the Z8/9 but the readout is faster than a conventional BSI sensor of the same size.

    www.theverge.com/2024/6/17/24178637/nikons-new-2500-z6-iii-has-the-worlds-first-partially-stacked-cmos-sensor

    There are rumors that Sony is planning to use the same sensor design in an upcoming Sony.

  • Members 166 posts
    June 20, 2024, 5:33 p.m.

    Ah, so the hands-on reviews and tests confirming the exceptional processing speeds of that camera compared to non-stacked sensors are just lies. Good to know.

  • Members 166 posts
    June 22, 2024, 2:23 a.m.
  • June 22, 2024, 5:04 p.m.

    I've moved the contentious posts into the Dumpster and deleted a couple of mine.

    if you wish to see threads in the Dumpster, you have to ask me and I will enable it for you.
    .

  • Members 2322 posts
    June 22, 2024, 9:52 p.m.

    looks like FM forum is the only site left for un-sensored factual discussions.

  • Members 538 posts
    June 22, 2024, 10:41 p.m.

    They use film there?

  • Members 2322 posts
    June 22, 2024, 10:57 p.m.

    at least you can have disscussions that the z6ii only has 270 focus points vers the opposition at 800 and looks like the partially stacked sensor cant auto focus or track anywhere near as fast as sony even from 8 years ago after watching matt grainger utube, but hey the nikon is a game changer 🤔 let me guess why that is so , and if anyone is smart enough you can figure out why the ram added to the end of the sensor is restricting the focusing. cant have your cake and eat it to. Everything is a compromise these days and cameras are moving into different specializations neither are better nor worst just different.

  • Members 4193 posts
    June 22, 2024, 11:43 p.m.

    Or view screenshots of your post you tried to hide by deleting it and my reply to it.

  • June 24, 2024, 2:36 p.m.

    Hi,
    I just wrote an article about it, which you'll find in the usual outlet.
    Think of this as the same technology as AMD uses to make processors from a number of chiplets. It allows different silicon tech to be used for different parts of the circuit. The tech that is optimal for pixel arrays is along way from that which is optimal for ADCs. By stacking specialist ADC chips they can have faster ADCs. The same tech allows them to put in buffer memory, which means that ADC readings can be cleared more quickly thus making read-out faster. The stacked chips are smaller so much less costly than a full stack - which also causes yield problems, because they are made by stacking whole wafers, so a defect in any of the chips in a stack voids the whole sensor.

  • June 24, 2024, 2:54 p.m.

    I doubt that the idea of a 'partially stacked sensor' itself is patentable, because 3DICs are not new, and used in a load of applications, such as for instance processors from Apple and AMD (so-called 'chiplet' processors). Just using a technique already used in the semiconductor industry to a particular type of semiconductor would be classed as 'obvious' and therefore not patentable.
    The point about this is that this type of 3DIC has not been used in commodity image sensors before. Previously stacked sensors have been stacked at the wafer level, before being split into individual dice. The advantage of this is that fab lines already have wafer positioning equipment that can achieve the precision of alignment required. This technique requires that all the chips in the stack are the size of the whole sensor, so it's expensive. To stack die-to-die or wafer-to-die requires equipment that can position individual dies to the required precision, which most fab lines don't have.
    Speculating on what has happened here, Sony Semiconductor Solutions (which almost certainly makes this sensor) has now included this equipment in its fab plant. Hazarding another guess, the equipment itself is based around or uses one or more Nikon Precision's alignment stations (www.nikonprecision.com/products-and-technology/alignment-stations/) and that Nikon is therefore the lead customer for this new product. As you say, Sony Imaging is another customer that might well make use of it, though I'd note that the A7 IV has a 33MP sensor, so I wouldn't expect it to use precisely the same sensor. A more likely second customer for this sensor would be Panasonic.

  • June 24, 2024, 2:56 p.m.

    The term 'Partially-stacked sensor' is undoubtedly marketing jargon. However, the sensor itself does seem to have gained some performance advantages by the incorporation of specialist ADC dies.

  • June 24, 2024, 4:19 p.m.

    He didn't say that they were 'just lies'. He said that the term 'partially stacked sensor' is marketing jargon, which it is. The normal technical terminology would have it that this is a 3-dimensional Integrated circuit (3DIC) functioning as an image sensor.

  • Members 2322 posts
    June 24, 2024, 9:34 p.m.

    Hi Bob, some are saying that the image sensor is loosing some of its performance due to the stacked ends. would heat disapate towards the middle of the sensor so it wouldnt perform as good for low light conditions. also i have noticed the lack of autofocus points on the sensor, so in theroy the sensor might be 3x faster but there is 3x less focus points 🤔which would cancel out the focus acuracy 🤔 watched some utubes where the auto focus is very jumpy and missing the subject.

  • Members 2322 posts
    June 25, 2024, 7:01 a.m.
  • June 25, 2024, 8:52 a.m.

    I don't think that the first speculation is close to the mark. In a non-stacked sensor the ADCs are right there on the sensor chip, so any heat they produce has a direct path to the pixel array. The ADC's on the helper chips will produce less heat anyway, since they will use a finer node, lower power process, and the heat has to get through a silicon-silicon bond which might approach the transmissivity of solid silicon, but won't be worse. In any case, reports I've seen so far suggest that it is a good low light performer. On the focus points, there is nothing in the technology that limits the number of focus points - Nikon tends to the lower end just by custom and the Z6 III has more focus points (299) than the Z6 II did (273). Higher MP cameras tend to have more. There's always a trade-off. The more focus points the more focus pixels need to be interpolated over and different companies take a different view on what is the best compromise between number of focus points and image quality, except for Canon, which with dual-pixel sensors can use any imaging pixel as a focus pixel. In any case, the number of focus points doesn't seem to have a great effect on focus accuracy. The focus being 'jumpy' also seems to be a Nikon feature. It's making different decisions about what is the subject. I have problems in subject recognition modes trying to photograph bowlers in cricket releasing the ball. I follow the bowler's run-up and it tracks perfectly. Then it decides that the umpire or batter is the target and switches. 3-D tracking mode works better, and allows me to track the ball rather then the bowler. Still, the technology's performance will get much better for you when Sony produces a camera using it.😉

  • June 25, 2024, 9:04 a.m.

    You can't tell, can you? It depends on the speed of the ball. You can't tell whether or not the ball here is travelling at the same speed as the A7r II photos that you're comparing it with. It seems unlikely that a netball would move at anything like the speed of a football. In the end it depends on how much the ball moves in the frame, so you also have to take into account framing. In any case, if you're comparing the Z6 III electronic shutter with the A7r II's mechanical shutter, then it's unsurprising, since the Z6 III's electronic shutter has about twice the transition time as a low-end (1/125 sync) mechanical shutter. That's why Nikon put in a mechanical shutter. If you're comparing like with like, both in electronic shutter mode there must be something like the ball speed effect in play because the A7r II has a sync speed of 1/12s. Or else it's just a faulty memory and a systematic comparison would reveal something different.