• Members 1662 posts
    July 9, 2023, 9:42 p.m.

    You were quicker than me... I also wanted to mention that Stephan posts some really interesting and well made lens comparisons on mflenses, (which - in my opinion - is preferable anyway, because it's way easier to communicate, give feedback and additional infos about other samples of the same lenses etc. on a message board than on a personal website usually). I don't know the other site, but I'm sure you have good reasons for mentioning it.

    All that being said, I didn't take the remark by @TimoK as a kind of attack on your credibility... I interpreted it as a humorous way of asking the question "... but where can we find those sources today?" or something to that effect. If that was indeed the case, I think it could have been worded differently, but I wouldn't have interpreted the "living in archives" line as an ad hominem attack, I guess... That's just my understanding and interpretation though - perhaps I'm wrong.

  • Members 244 posts
    July 9, 2023, 10:17 p.m.

    So, the owners of the site open up a thread to discuss the strategic direction of this site since DPR is staying open. And some people want to talk about thread vs flat views and other “important” strategic items. Ummmm, sure, Ok.

    Guys who own this site: your efforts have been amazing to date. Take the site in whatever strategic direction you desire. Carve out the niche that you believe will make this site successful. Some will stay, some will leave, others will join, some will complain about the color of the home page. Regardless, move the site to what you wish or close it down as you desire. Your site, your rules.

  • Members 300 posts
    July 10, 2023, 3:54 a.m.

    I did not try to make an ad hominem attack. I am sorry if I made.
    @simplejoy found my point. But it is better not to put anything between lines in foreign language. I edited my post.

  • Members 105 posts
    July 10, 2023, 7:43 a.m.

    since the remarks about "living in an archive". because of referring to sites (mistakenly) believed to be defunct, have disappeared, I cease to believe that it was intended as a slight and hope that this debate will continue to concentrate on the substance of how to run a forum.

    p.

  • Members 50 posts
    July 10, 2023, 4:34 p.m.

    I certainly appreciate the time and effort as well as the finances that the founders of this new site have invested in this site. I did not mean my suggestions as "telling them waht to do"! I was given the impression, in direct communication with them, that they are looking for editorial concepts and ideas to differentiate this site from the original DPR forums.

    Eventually, the ownership and management will make THEIR decisions but, they are wise to analyze the potential market and subscribers. Businesses, corporations, professional associations, retailers, and service companies spend lots of time and money to gather statistics, garner ratings, find out if the clients are satisfied, or not, and are constantly feeling out their marketplace.

  • July 10, 2023, 7:30 p.m.

    I don't think your suggestions came across as 'telling us what to do'. A lot of good ideas there. It's funny that my OP talked about us having the advantage of
    "maybe two dozen members with very deep expertise in matters photographic" and several replies have interpreted that expertise as being "scientists". I didn't intend it that way, I meant 'matters photographic'. I think there's room for some breadth there, so long as we ensure that the content is high quality and well-informed.

  • Members 369 posts
    July 11, 2023, 1:04 p.m.

    Common sense is the collection of what's been learned about nature and people and by the age of 18.

    It's not as quotable as Einstein but is more broadly applicable.

    There is no need to define hostility. Any adult has, by definition, lived through childhood and puberty. Children are naturally cruel. Teens have mastered socialization skills well enough to elevate cruelty to a team sport.

    I'm not saying every child is cruel or that every teen is a member of a group that uses cruelty as an instrument of power. But we've all seen it. Many of us have been personally guilty of cruelty towards others at least once or twice. It probably left a bad taste in one's mouth - bad enough to recognize that's not the person you want to be. But I doubt any of us is a virgin in this matter.

    Moderation is done by a team for a reason. A team has a leader for a reason. If a team member strays, other members help nudge that person back on the correct path. If the behavior continues, the team leader gets involved in the nudging. If the behavior persists, the team member is dropped.

    That sends an important message to the remaining team members. One, their efforts are supported by leadership. Two, no one person is so critical to the success of the team that they can't be dropped for failing to comport themselves according to the mission and values of the team.

    There's no need for a definition of what hostility is. We know it when we see it...because we've seen it, been the target of it, or the deployer of it.

    Personally, I believe the line is crossed when a member addresses their criticism at a person as opposed to the argument. When that line is crossed - when the negativity gets personal - that's when moderation is needed.

    Of course, that's not the only manner in which a person can intentionally disrupt a discussion. The person who repeatedly & persistently gets involved in discussions to stir the pot and sew the seeds of frustration amongst others - trolling - doesn't insult others and may not even actually engage in the discussion other than to disagree.

    The troll doesn't argue from a position of logic. They're disagreement isn't founded on a rational understanding of a fact or concept. Nor is their participation triggered by a recognition that someone has misrepresnted a fact or or misunderstood a concept.

    The troll simply disagrees. They contribute gibberish - nothing of value - to the discussion. They ignore rational commentary made in response to their gibberish. They persistently disagree simply for the pleasure of watching others agonize over their irrationality, and refusal to acknowledge facts or logic.

    The troll's objective is to be a metasticized cancer in a thread. They've succeeded when the majority of content added to the thread is in response to their gibberish. These posts do nothing to further an understanding of the central topic. The thread now exists solely to feed the engorged ego of the troll. All attention is focused on them and their (arguably benign) antagonism.

    We have members who are trolls in this forum. They've been active from day one and have worked hard to transform the site into a stagnant swamp. They can be recognized by their thread-derailing comments that end up in the dumpster.

    I just hope the dumpster area isn't too little, too late.

    No, we don't need a definition of hostility. We need a membership and moderation team that's empowered to nudge a person back in line when their criticisms are directed at people. We need a leadership team that will not tolerate trolling. We also need a leadership team that will nudge a moderator back in line when they step in where moderation isn't needed.

  • Members 243 posts
    July 11, 2023, 1:28 p.m.

    Not sure telling the owners to do whatever they want in regards to strategic direction adds any more to the conversation than discussing flat view vs threaded. But yeah....."important".

  • Members 976 posts
    July 11, 2023, 3:42 p.m.

    What I would like to see is the magazine part of the site:
    - state of the trade / trends,
    - news,
    - articles on masters and masterpieces,
    - reviews,
    - letters to the editor / opinions,
    - tests,
    - how-tos (techniques, DIY),
    - tips and tricks,
    - theory,
    - buy / sell.

  • Members 395 posts
    July 11, 2023, 4:30 p.m.

    Hi,

    Now, that would be very nice. :)

    Stan

  • Members 1645 posts
    July 11, 2023, 5:42 p.m.

    I believe, "Where do we go from here" needs actioning pretty swiftly as there is the prospect of people drifting back to DPR.

    Out of curiosity, one boring evening, I took a look at the other forum that was born out of the announcement that DPR was closing. There were just 3 members online, I just took another look before writing this and there were just 2 members online! I thought "Nikon Café", my other hangout was low on traffic, but they jog along at about 40 members online in any one moment. The moderation team on Sniper5's forum seems to have been reduced to just three, including two of DPR's most vindictive and nasty moderators. I quess with that level of traffic, poor old Sniper5 can do the moderation alone.

    The weekly picture threads that migrated from DPR, seem to be working quite well here, and I would say they are the big attraction for many of us. Maybe this forum is proving attractive to those who have got beyond the gear "Fanboy" stage, and are actually interested in photography.

    The free and easy moderation is an attraction too for many of us who fell foul of the schizophrenic moderation on DPR, but I few things I read on that other forum suggest that certain troublesome behaviours need to be contained, preferably with a bit more use of the Dumpster.

  • July 11, 2023, 7:54 p.m.

    We are reliant on a few people doing the necessary mods to the code to do some of the updates - and they are all volunteers. So, it happens when it happens. Having said that, we do have a plan - we just can't stick to a timetable.

    All the suggestions are good and nothing here is being ignored.

    Alan

  • July 11, 2023, 8:52 p.m.

    I think people who prefer DPReview will migrate back there, whatever we do - it's what they used to, and now that it's had a reprieve they'll see it as their major home. My own view is that we shouldn't go off half baked in a bid to stop people drifting back, because we won't succeed, and by doing so we'll foul up our own future. We've had quite a few people offering to write articles, and so when we get our article system going, we should have a lot of content ready to go. I think a relaunch with poor software and a handful of articles would not serve us well.
    We're refining our moderation policies as we go along. To my mind the major problem was a small gang of very vocal people who deluded the forums with posts saying we'd got it all wrong, should be banning people and so on. That seems to have calmed down a bit, and even the usual disputants arne's at it as much. Nothings been put in the dumpster for a while.

  • Members 689 posts
    July 11, 2023, 9:58 p.m.

    How did you figure how many people are online?

  • Members 243 posts
    July 11, 2023, 10:09 p.m.

    Actually, its not one or the other, many will do both. There is no meaningful Z traffic here, so I will get my fix at DPR and to a lesser extent, FM, but still come here for stuff as well.

  • Members 395 posts
    July 11, 2023, 10:24 p.m.

    Hi,

    Nothing going on over in the Medium Format forum here, either. The latest is 14 days old now. Meanwhile, there are 15 threads with activity in the past day over on DPReview. The MF forum over there never did quit. I think most of us were riding it out until the end. But we were mostly here as well and that seems to have tapered off.

    Stan

  • Members 2310 posts
    July 11, 2023, 10:39 p.m.

    This was a social experiment that didnt end well. you had a vision to build/moderate your forum based on your personal beliefs (equality). and self moderation. well everyone is moving back to the regulated site dispite the rules.

  • Members 599 posts
    July 11, 2023, 10:49 p.m.

    Sorry, but that is not a reasonable comparison. Mostly older adults here and though some my behave like children, it doesn't mean they should be treated so! This forum is a breath of fresh air!