Where we go from here

Unfortunately, the world being what it is, you have to clearly, explicitly articulate your plan and your goals and your aspirations to your intended audience. Then you have to repeatedly reinforce that message until you think you have made a pain of yourself. And when you think you have exhausted that repetition, you have to say it again. Any pause, any lull in the information is interpreted as failure.

"Trust us, we have a plan, watch this space, it'll all be clear sometime soon now, we think you're gonna like what we are cooking up," doesn't cut it. It never has. And in the super-accelerated world of the Internet, that's even more true.

There is nothing of merit happening on this site but a single thread of C&C that is fairly healthy. Small by most standards, but healthy, fun, respectful, intelligent. That's it.

Other threads of any activity at all have mostly degenerated into incredibly childish bickering contests, tolerated by Admin in a misguided sense of egalitarian "Laisez faire" or distorted free speech principle. Letting the children run the Kindergarten may seem like a wonderfully fresh and liberating idea at the outset, until the results of that effort become horribly apparent.

That's not much to build on. The community at DPReview itself still seems subdued and not quite ready to believe that it's still alive. That's not much to count on while this ship just meanders, aimlessly.

Rich

That's an opinion, not a fact ;)

.
And what is a fact? Look at the threads gathered the most of the replies/posts.

I'm looking at what interests me.

Well, you truncated my statement. I said, "There is nothing of merit happening on this site but a single thread of C&C that is fairly healthy."

And yes, of course, that is opinion.

I have much respect for many individuals who have participated here with good intent, but with unfortunately sabotaged results, resulting in misguided efforts to rehabilitate the situation, leading to more fighting in the mud.

Yes, it's my opinion.

But my opinion is based on a lot of evidence. Since this site has existed, could you hold up the majority of "discussions" here as anything healthy and constructive? At this point could you collect them as a commendable example of the constructive discussion of photography principles or intelligent or polite discourse? There have been truths stated as the reason for many threads, but the resulting discussions have obscured anything reasonable.

Maybe some people came here with anger boiling over from the situation at DPReview and took out that anger in a curiously misguided way here, a "place of refuge" as it were. I don't know.

My point is, Admin needs to clearly articulate a new character of this place from right now going forward. Just letting it free-run doesn't work.

But people who are looking for the website are looking at what the site can offer them. And when they see that the most posts are about moderating on DP Review or bickering about Exposure Triangle or one of the most posting forum is Dumpster, they get the certain impression. I am a Nikon user. Nikon released a new camera Z8.
Usually forum related to this camera is exploded with posts good, bad, anything. But not on this site. But thread about moderation on DP review is up again.
Also, unfortunately, this site is the one of the sites most filled with negativity. This is my impression, and from what I read, not only mine.

Sorry gnag!
I feel like the guy who reached for the water bucket to put out a fire and mistakingly grabbed the jerry can full of gasoline (petrol) and poured fuel on the fire! It seems that my post has stimulated more bickering.

As I intimated in my previous post, perhaps I am too old school and not as cyber-savvy as many of the folks here and nowadays but having survived in business for a long time, I believe in salesmanship. If you want to "sell" your concept to the photograhic community y'all need to analyze the components of a SALE. No matter what "product" you are "selling" there are a few principles that apply: attract attention, create interest, point out the advantages, address questions and objections, and hopefully, close the sale!

In the olden days, merchants attracted attention by standing outside their shops like a barker at a circus sideshow, beckoning to passers-by. Of course, classier shops had attractive window displays. Media advertising attracts attention and stimulates interest. Nowadays the Internet offers endless publicity opportunities to attract interest and create a desire
for any product, service, or concept. If an entity has the budget, they can go to an advertising or PR agency and have them do work, design a concept, and execute the mechanics. If not, y'all have to get your act together and reach out!

OK, let's say, by hook or by crook you attract folks to your "shop". This is the point where you make or break your business. You have to be prepared to offer, in real-time, waht you promised in your promotional efforts. Your stock in trade has to be there! You have to be prepared. You can not tell the potential customers that you are still in setup mode or that there is managerial infighting or anything negative. You can say "Come back next week, things will be better"! Your "grand opening needs to be, indeed GRAND so the good word of mouth will begin.

This is not to say that, in any new venture, there are not going to be many unresolved issues and problems "BEHIND THE SCENES" but these are not problems to be made public.

So...Let me stop being an unwelcomed advisor, a boss of my own business, or who knows what(?) I am just a CONSUMER of photographic knowledge, entertainment, forums, information, communication, a frustrated teacher, and/or whatever. What are my areas of interest? What do I have to offer as a member? OK- here goes- portraiture, still-life, industrial and commercial subjects, lightng dynamics, fashion photojournalism, etc. Others may be more in sports, wildlife, birds, fine art, macro/micro, scientific, astronomical, underwater... Offer straightforward categories and sub-categories.

As a consumer- waht I do not want ot see? Bickering, infighting, endless etymology of buzzwords and philosophical concepts. I am, in fact, an old man with a grey beard, but I don't want to land an old age home for disgruntled grouchy old photgahers. I do not want to put up with trolls and troublemakers. We need some young blood too! Sadly, our society is riddled with ageism and "battles of the generations". The fact is the rookies can learn a lot from the old-schoolers and the older fokls can certainly benefit from the newcomers.

One thing I can tell you and swear by- never knock your competition! It will seriously backfire. In this situation, this shows any newcomers that you are worried about your competitors or afraid of them. It gives them leverage! My own approach- when a client brings up my competitors I simply say "That guy/gal is a great photographer- we belong to the same association and had lunch together last week"- kind of thing. If the competitor is a known "bad actor" I siply say, "I am not familiar with his or her work"! In either case- problems are diffused and we can go onthe to more important issues.

This will likely be my final post in this thread. I assume everyone here understands my suggestions and either agrees or disagrees and that is all good.

I have a few editorials and possibly interesting posts in storage, just waiting for a place to insert them.

I wouldn't even have seen any of this bickering if it wasn't for the "THREADS" category on this miserably designed interface. On DPR one would simply navigate to their particular forum and never know this crap existed. The clean design of a simple drop down box with alphabetically listed forum links was just too simple and successful to be used here.I don't know how many posts suggested at least different font sizes or colors to distinguish the mess on the start page.This is really simple stuff! ignored ignored ignored. Still looks like S___ after 90 days and any new people would quickly determine this forum has little appeal because it is intentionally designed to NOT model itself after or even remotely resemble DPR in any way. I continue to participate here as well as DPR but there isn't a lot of activity in topics I enjoy here. Possibly because of reasons outlined and the vibe here seems to be creating a photography University rather than a photo and gear forum.

"The new ship doesn't wonder how it will keep its passengers. It won't, by and large. Mostly the traffic is going back to DPReview, and there's nothing we can do to stop that. Nor should we want to. However, we'll keep some to the extent that we offer something that DPReview doesn't. "

OK. What do you offer?

"The people for whom that difference is important know what it is."

Well, I'm one of the people for whom the difference would be important.

So let me ask again. What is that difference.? What is your Vision for the site?

Let me say again "Watch this space," doesn't say a thing.

Concisely, what is this site going to be? And how are you going to get there?

Rich

If the members are the same as other forums how come we could expect a different experience? The fact that DPR survived made redundant this and any other forum created after the apparent sinking of that boat. The member build-up was very fast due to panic of missing "a new home", but stop and never reach 4,000 and many went back there.

A forum is a monster fed by its members and the content they generate. Probably 90% of all the conversations generated here are to talk trash about DPR, DPRForums, or simply to talk trash about anything. As a Leica M user, I can tell you this Leica forum is dead. (7 threads in total) and the Canon R... not so hot either, but It is what it is.

That would seem to me to be a key item. If you have the resources to create time, take that time and use it wisely.

I too see too much bickering and pedantry here at the moment, but if that changes over time, the site can grow.

dpreview is a commercial entity and has to make money for the new owners. That creates its own pressures.

Why the hand wringing angst? Give it time. It doesn't happen overnight. This site is a breath of fresh air! No heavy handed draconian moderation involved here. People can express themselves more freely. Isn't that fabulous, compared to the stifled anal retentive dictatorial nonsense going on at DPR. Teething issues may exist for some folks grappling with that new found freedom of expression, but hey, is it really all that bad compared to that other nonsense at DPR. That conflict will subside in due course, with sporadic flare ups from time to time. We are all big boys here that can deal with a tussle or two. Too many are just not used to it at present.

Remember those vinyl LP's you were so careful not to scratch whilst loading onto the turntable? Ever take one and put your fingers prints and nails into a copy you were about to toss anyways? Cathartic wasn't it?
Well, this is one of those differences that is important to not only know, but to feel! Enjoy it while you can...

Asking for a clear direction for this site now that Bob has stated that it is not a haven/replica for members fleeing a site that was thought to be completely and suddenly closed is "hand wringing angst?"

As for that last paragraph . . .

Huh???????

I never tossed an LP in my life.

I also never had any problem with moderators when I expressed my opinion on DPR, or witnessed anything of the kind. That is not to say it didnt exist in certain areas of the site — simply that I and many other never went near those areas.

David

My LPs were kept with TLC.

Regarding the "problem with DPR moderators," mark yourself fortunate. They were, shall we say . . . capricious.

Rich